Going from hurt to hope
Are there things hurting you from the past you’re still carrying around? Or do you know someone who is? This week’s podcast episode is full of healing. I interview my new friend, Steve Wormer. We talk about his work as a minister, and the Hurt to Hope program he works with to help churches and individuals find healing in their lives. It’s a Bible-based program that helps someone move from the hurts of the past to hope for the future.
Here’s a transcript of our conversation:
James
Let me tell you a little bit about Steve. Steve lives in Memphis, Tennessee, with his wife, Rebecca, and they have three wonderful children. Steve and Rebecca have been married for 26 years. That’s quite an accomplishment. Steve has led three churches during his time as a pastor, including presently, he’s leading a church in the Memphis, Tennessee area.
Steve is also the executive director for Caring Resources. And they are especially known for their transformational program called Hurt to Hope. Caring Resources is a nonprofit organization that helps people from all different backgrounds to overcome painful experiences from their past. Steve is also a speaker, and a certified leadership and life coach. And Steve just released his first book titled Rivers of Hope. We’ll come back to that and talk about the book and a little bit.
Steve, I would love for you just to share a little bit with my listeners. Just a brief kind of overview of your faith journey. You’ve been pastoring three different churches and you’ve probably done all kinds of other things in ministry, and in your Christian walk. I’d just be delighted to hear a little bit about how you got where you are.
Steve
I appreciate the question. I’ll try to do the Cliff notes version. I grew up a little bit in the Methodist church, but I didn’t attend a whole lot. That was in my junior year high school years, then I got into worldly things, like a lot of people do in their youth. And that carried on for some time until a series of events, like God typically orchestrates or allows in my life.
So actually, after Rebecca and I were married, in 1996, a series of things happened a few years after that, that brought us to our knees in 2004. We went through a Bible study series with a church that God had put us in touch with in Nashville, Tennessee, which was our hometown at the time. And we were baptized for the forgiveness of our sins on the same day. Actually, I was baptized and turned around and baptized her.That was a special special day March 14, 2004. A whole new journey began that day.
James Early
Oh, yeah. So how did you get involved in the ministry and you’ve been in three different churches in a leadership position? What’s that journey been like?
Serving in church
Steve Wormer
We came out of the water just wanting to serve: little things, you know, book table, ushering. You know how it is when you serve. God just gives you more opportunities to serve. And so we led a family group, small group, whatever different terms that your audience may be familiar with. We did that for three years. And then we really started praying about full time ministry, during kind of the end of that three years with serving as family group leaders.
And it was during that time that God put on my heart to actually start a men’s purity ministry in the church, which we didn’t have one. I don’t know if it ever had one. I did that for a couple of years and really started praying about ministry as a full time endeavor. And we were approached by one of the elders in our church in Nashville at that time. He said, “Hey, listen, I know you guys have been praying about this, seeking advice about it. I’ve got an opportunity I want to run by you.”
We had a satellite house church in Huntsville, Alabama. And at the time, Rebecca and I, we lived about halfway between our church in Nashville, Tennessee, and Huntsville, Alabama. We lived way out in the country. But it was still about an hour and a half drive from Huntsville. But the opportunity was, “You can go down there and preach every Sunday, and we can’t pay you but we’ll pay for your mileage, and we’ll pay for your lunch. And you can preach every week. You can have lunch with the members after church every week. And then if if there’s an emergency, you can go down, you know, during the week if you so see fit.”
We kept our jobs, obviously, because it wasn’t a paying ministry position yet. So that was kind of how we got our feet wet. And we did that for two years drove an hour and a half one way each Sunday and an hour and a half back. That’s how we got our feet with the ministry.
James
Well, that takes some commitment to do that without any pay. Obviously your heart was in it full time there, even though it was the kind of a part time thing right? Yeah, that’s beautiful.
Hurt to Hope program
I want to jump right into this program you’re associated with called Hurt to Hope. You and I have talked previously about that program and all the good things it’s doing. So could you tell my listeners what the program is and how it got started? Why is it still going? What’s it doing? How is it helping people? Just kind of give us an overview of what that program is all about?
Steve
I love talking about Hurt to Hope. It’s just a remarkable program. The word HOPE we use it as an acronym to mean Helping Overcome Painful Experiences. And so this transformational workshop is a 10 hour workshop, typically done for three hours on a Friday night, seven hours on a Saturday. It’s deep heart work. It’s for anybody that is going through any kind of grieving, but it’s also I would say, a deeper dive than just grieving.
It goes into life’s disappointments. It goes into unforgiveness, bitterness, relationship challenges. It’s that whole gamut: What are you dealing with right now that is causing you pain? And hurt to hope can help with that.
And so then the second part of your question, if I heard it, right, was how did it get started. So the program was started by two ladies that founded the program back in the late 1990s. One of them was with her husband, their daughter and their new son-in-law. The wedding had been just a few days previous. And they’re driving to a new restaurant in Nashville, Tennessee. It was December, cold, dark, after five o’clock, on a four lane road.
They were having a great time of fellowship, looking forward to the meal. And all of a sudden, they hear a thud on the quarter panel of the car. And they pulled over. When they get out of the car, they heard screaming coming from the side of the road. It was a group of kids that we’re trying to beat the traffic light.
The group as a whole had waited. But unfortunately, a teenager, a young teenage girl, had gone ahead, and they never saw her. The car hit her. It was a tragic story; she was dead on arrival. So you can imagine the scene right? The firefighters, the police, the hysteria; tragic, tragic story, for sure.
A heart crying out for support
And so we fast forward a week or two. And Farah, is her name, one of the founders of the organization, she’s in church. And she’s approached during fellowship with questions such as these: Hey, that night. Did you have your lights on? Hey, that evening of the accident, were you drinking? Did you have both hands on the wheel? And she’s thinking to herself, “Wow, I mean, I check all your boxes. But didn’t Paul say, We’re to rejoice with those that are rejoicing and weep with those that are weeping (see Romans 12:15 below). I’m weeping, I’m hurting inside. This has changed my life forever. And the church is supposed to be my safe place. It doesn’t feel safe right now.” That’s how all of this started.
James
Oh, that’s interesting. She wanted some empathy. She wanted someone to hold her hand and say it’s gonna be okay, I understand how you might be feeling. And they were just checking off a box to see if she was doing the right thing. I think that’s because people don’t know how to comfort people in general. We get self-righteous about it. We think, “Well, I would have done it differently.” I don’t know. What do you think about that?
Steve
I think the first part of your comment is definitely true. And I didn’t understand that. God revealed to me, probably in the last couple of years, people are so uncomfortable with pain. We’re uncomfortable with our own pain. So we assume you’re going to be uncomfortable in yours. It’s easier for us to either ask questions that don’t help, like in this example, where we download more information. And what we forget in that scenario is as we’re downloading more information, their brains are not broken. Their heart is broken.
How do we really comfort people?
James
Oh, that’s really important. Because people when they’re hurting inside, they need to be comforted. And they need something that will help start to heal those hurts. And we don’t always know how to do that. So this Hurt to Hope program got started because this woman experienced that terrible tragedy. And that made her realize, “Oh, I need healing inside. Other people must too.” And that’s kind of how it got started?
Steve
That’s the Cliff Notes version. You know, there were some other curve balls and bends in the road that took it a couple years to become what it is now. But yeah, that’s the long and short of it. Just real quickly James, I mean, it’s not like we don’t have a Biblical example of what we’re talking about. Right when Job was going through all his suffering, his three buddies do a great job of sitting with him, they’re just there. They’re present for seven days without saying a word (see Job 2:11-13 below). And then they just couldn’t help themselves the next day, right? they had to start asking questions. So there’s a great example for us, we just need to sit with people and not say much.
James
Yeah, that’s really a good point. They did not exactly console him. Well, they didn’t have the big picture, obviously. But they didn’t know how to really help him in the way that he needed it.
The Good Samaritan as an example
The story I think about is the Good Samaritan. Obviously, the priest and the Levite, didn’t even try to help. They thought they were above it. They thought, “Oh, well, that would never happen to me.” I don’t know what they were thinking when they pass by. But then we know the Samaritan is the one who actually bent down, came to his level where he was, almost half dead, the Bible says (see Luke 10:30-34 below). And he helped him and I think that’s kind of the model that Jesus is giving us to follow. So tell me, what inspired you to get involved in this program?
Steve
Our mother’s passed away in 2006, three months apart. And Rebecca, my wife went to a Hurt to Hope workshop that was offered at our church at the time, sometime in 2007. A few months later, I remember her coming home and telling me just how much she had learned and how good it was and how helpful it was. And, of course, I’m a typical guy, right? You know, it’s not on my radar, I got back to the plow. Nor did the program come available again anytime soon.
But what happened was, by this time, fast forward several years to 2017. So 11 years later, we’re leaving the church in Springfield, Illinois. And I’m driving down the road to an appointment. And I started thinking about this program that I haven’t been through yet. And I call one of the founders. And we talk and I remember, it impacted me, the phone call.
But we were in our first full time ministry position. And there were a lot of fires we were putting out. I eventually called them back. And what happened was, they took me through it with some DVDs that they had the teachings on. And then I would have a weekly coaching call with one of the founders Cheryl. So basically, I’m learning in a DVD session, I’m taking the course.
God opens a door
And then she’s walking me through to teach me how to eventually walk it through with somebody else. So I’m kind of getting a two for one deal there.
So what that did was, it opened us up down the road to invite church members into our home. And they could start going to the program, those those that wanted to look into it. And so we did that. We did it several times, just opened up our home and had groups of, you know, sometimes we had three people, sometimes we had eight or 10. That’s how we got our feet wet with it.
James
I’m curious, obviously, you must have gotten something out of it. If you wanted to keep helping other people. How did it personally help you?
Steve
Great question. The teachings were so powerful.
James
Can you give me an example?
The power of forgiveness
Steve
Yeah, I’ll give you one example. Okay, keep in mind, you’re talking with a minister. So it’s not like I don’t present material on gratitude or forgiveness or God’s perspective. I’m giving you examples of some of the things we teach. So it’s not like I’m not teaching those things from time to time from the pulpit, right? But the material was so powerful that it drew me in.
I’m gonna give an example forgiveness, right. We’re taught, or I don’t even know if we’re taught, we’ve seen it modeled for us that, let’s say, I’ve hurt you, James. I come back to you almost like a knee-jerk reaction and say, Hey, will you forgive me?
And we think there’s nothing wrong with that, right? Well, there is a challenge in it. Because if I’m holding a bunch of books, and you bump me in the hallway, and you say, Hey, I’m so sorry. Well, of course, it’s nothing. And you’ll help me pick up the books and we’ll be fine. Right? That’s a minor offense, right?
But let’s say, and I would never do this, hopefully, but I’m human. Let’s say I slandered somebody in your family. And you’re really struggling with that, as you should. And I come to you two days later, and I say James, will you forgive me?
I’ve actually just imposed on you another burden. You’re struggling with God in your alone times with God you’re struggling to forgive me. That’s what we teach, forgiveness is between you and God.
True forgiveness
But I’m trying to expedite the forgiveness. Why? Because I went off your hook. So the better thing to do is give an apology with integrity: “James, I’m so sorry for what I did, the things that I said, they were inappropriate. They were uncalled for. And I apologize from my heart.” That makes it easier for you to eventually forgive. Hopefully, you see the difference?
James
Oh, sure. But then sometimes somebody doesn’t even know they’ve offended you, or they’ve done it on purpose. And they don’t apologize. That’s a whole other level of forgiving too. So, there are lots of levels and layers of forgiveness. And when we really do that it is powerful.
So have you found in taking other people through this class, this course this workshop, whatever you call it, have they found that helpful to learn to forgive others?
Steve
It’s amazing. Some of the stories that I hear physical abuse, sexual abuse, abandonment, the horrific details of some of these abuses, just makes you cry almost on the spot, right? After they’ve gone through this course, it’s like this weight has been lifted. And you ask them how they’re doing with it. It’s almost like it’s nonchalant. And it’s not, of course, but it’s like, “Oh, I forgave my dad during that workshop; it’s gone. I don’t even think about it.” It’s like, Whoa, it’s more powerful than even I thought, right? How God’s working through it.
James
I’m sure you talk about more things than just forgiveness in this workshop. But let’s talk about forgiveness. I know I’ve done an episode on this, and I’ve interviewed other people on forgiveness. But I’d love to hear your take on what forgiveness really is . And I don’t want the little Sunday School pat answer that you’ve memorized and tell everybody.
What really is forgiveness? And what does it do? Why is it so powerful?
What happens when you don’t forgive?
Steve
I’m pausing only because I don’t want to give a canned response to that. We do say and you’ve probably heard this before. Unforgiveness is like taking a spoonful of poison every single day, and expecting the other person to die.
James Yeah, I’ve heard that. Actually, it’s a very good metaphor. Yeah.
Steve I think everybody’s got a different way to explain it. I think for me, when I can think about the person that’s offended me. And, you know, when you walk into a room with someone you haven’t forgiven yet, you want to turn the other way, you want to get up quick, or you start to feel the blood pressure rise all the way.
I think it’s when you can finally – maybe you’re not gonna go to lunch with them, maybe you’re not gonna go on a cruise with them – but when you don’t have that kind of reaction, I can at least say Hi, I can at least be cordial. I can love them.
I call it loving them from 3,000 feet away. And the reason I say that, is forgiveness and trust are two different things. There are situations you would not put your children back into, nor should you put yourself back into certain situations. So forgiveness, it’s just one person, it’s me and God. But reconciliation always takes two.
James
Right! It’s important to know the distinction between those two things.
So what really, is forgiveness? How do you actually get to that point where you can feel that forgiveness in your heart, toward that other person. You have to work that out, as you said, between you and God, but how do you get to the point then where you can coexist with that other person that’s offended you.
And sometimes, as I said earlier, they don’t even know it. Or they don’t feel like they did anything wrong. How do you get there?
Forgiving can be hard
Steve
I don’t think it’s a glorious answer, James, I think it’s, it’s almost Jacob-like, and what I mean by that is it’s really wrestling with God. And I can only speak from my perspective. Some people I think are more naturally forgiving than others. I wish I was that person.
I had some things happen in my life that just really caused me to have a lack of trust issues. And so I have to work at it, is what I’m trying to say. So it’s me going to the throne a lot and wrestling with it. And then what I find is my experience has been how the spirits worked, is its gradual, it becomes less and less. One day it’s not there anymore.
So it’s just a continuous wrestling with God with it. And being conscientious about it. It pops up in the middle of the day out of nowhere. It’s like I haven’t thought about this in a month? Why now? Okay, hmm, I can blow that off as coincidental. Or that could be a prompting from God, like, Okay, I need to spend a little more time with God on this. And I do my best.
The last thing I’ll say about that is I do my best. It depends on where you’re at. When that happens, of course, I do my best to try to deal with it instantaneously. Okay, I need to get in the car and do this. If I’m in public, I need to go to my office and deal with this. But I need to get on my knees and pray it through some more.
Talking with God
James
I love your image of going to the throne. When you go through that process, you also call it wrestling with God, is there a conversation you have with God? How do you actually work through that? How do you wrestle it out? How do you resolve it? How do you pray about it?
Steve
I think it’s identifying or communicating to God out loud. It’s like, I know, even as this offense has been done to me, that I’m far from perfect. And I’ve heard people, and I want to apologize for that. And I want to not make this offense to me any greater than one’s I’ve committed to people.
But get specific. I think God likes specifics: “Father, I’m really maybe not quite over this part of it. Help me with that.” But also you can, this is a little different too: “Father, even though this shouldn’t have happened, and I’m struggling with it, I’m grateful for it. I’m grateful for what the relationship was. I’m grateful for specifically what they did.”
And then you can even pray for them. I want to pray for this person’s health. I want to pray for their finances. I want to pray for their other relationships. When you get specific like that, to me, it tenderizes the heart. And it puts it all in proper perspective.
Shifting from hurt to hope and blessing
James
I love that idea. You’re shifting from you being hurt to how can I bless this person? That’s a real shift. And you’re right, it does come slowly, sometimes. Sometimes more quickly, depending on the circumstances. Maybe?
Yeah, when we can shift from hurting to wanting to bless, wanting to love, it changes our heart, it changes the direction we’re looking spiritually, I think, and then we can go forward in the right direction.
It seems like right now this Hurt to Hope program is kind of a localized thing in the Tennessee area. Is it being done other places as well? Do you have plans to expand the program? If I could come to the program, that’s great. But if I’m living in someplace else in the country, or some of my listeners, they can’t necessarily show up in Memphis, Tennessee, I’m just curious. The principles obviously could bless someone, wherever they are. How available is what you have to the public?
Steve
Yeah, the good news is, it is available to the public. It has been localized in a large degree to the Nashville, Tennessee market, because that’s where the founders are. That’s where the board of directors are all located. That kind of thing. Interesting enough, the small nonprofit, it’s been done in Kenya, Nepal, the Philippines, Canada, Mexico, and then several cities in the US too.
It’s amazing the places it’s been, but still not that well known. And we are looking to expand, to your point, right?
The good news is we have a workshop at the end of February. And so like everybody else, we learned how to do these things on Zoom a couple of years ago. And the reason we have them in Nashville, it takes about five to seven of us to pull off a workshop effectively.
Because you know, 10 hours is a lot of teaching, right? And we have an AV person. So we all meet at one central location and teach it from Nashville. And then sometimes we’ll have people come in person where we’re at, but then we do it via Zoom. So anywhere in the world can join in, and that’s what’s happened. We’ve seen it start to be more and more across the States for sure.
James
I see. Okay, so if somebody wants to find out about it, they can go to the website, or Hurt to Hope is that right? Correct. And that is hurt2hope.org.
Steve Yep, you got it.
What brings healing?
James Okay, well, I’ll have that link in the show notes in case anyone wants to check that out. Thinking of Hurt to Hope or any kind of a program where you’re trying to help people heal from the hurts in their lives, What is it that really brings healing to someone’s life?
I mean, forgiveness is one thing, but in a broader sense, what is it that, or maybe it’s a bunch of individual ideas, different aspects, what brings healing of these things to someone’s life.
Steve
I think it is a few things, James. To me, one stands out with forgiveness. I’d almost say they’re like cousins forgiveness and gratitude go hand in hand towards your healing.
James
I’m glad you brought that back up, because you mentioned gratitude earlier. And I was wanting to comment about that. And I forgot. So let’s talk about gratitude. I think it’s a form of prayer really. Yeah. Well, tell me tell me, what is gratitude to you? How have you seen that change people’s lives?
Gratitude heals
Steve
We teach on it, we have a segment on it near the end of the workshop. And it’s usually my favorite segment to teach. It’s a little more interactive, in that we ask some specific questions like, just for example, you know, “Name three things that you’re most grateful for in 2022.” Okay, that’s easy, right? Then you get into, “Name two things you’re grateful for, for the person you tend to criticize the most.”
James
Oh, that’s wonderful.
Entitlement attitude stops gratitude
Steve
And so that always takes a little longer, but what we say, and your audience may be able to think of more, we say that there’s typically five things that we can identify that stop our gratitude. And so when we can identify what those five things are, we can grow in those areas.
Our gratitude will increase along with it. I’ll give you just one example. Right? Obviously living in a country like United States, or even if you wanted to say North America, for that matter. It’s a battle as a believer, to not have an entitlement mentality. Right? Entitlement mentality is one of the robbers of gratitude.
James
Yeah, because you think you deserve it. And why should I be grateful? It’s, it’s mine by right. I’m really curious what the other four are.
Steve
Do you want to go into that now or another time?
James Well, just briefly, I think it’s helpful. It’s one thing to be grateful. But it’s another thing to realize what the roadblocks are. If you can identify the roadblocks, then maybe you can realize, “Oh, that’s why I was having a hard time being grateful.” Because we all have so many things to be grateful for.
My wife and I, every night before we go to bed, we think of three things that day that we’re grateful for at least. Sometimes we come up with 10 or 15. But we always come up with at least three and it’s a powerful way to end the day. That’s such a good practice such a good habit to develop.
Steve
I love it. I love it that you’re doing it together, too.
James
Sometimes my wife will say, “Okay, can you be done now? I’ve got to go to sleep.” Then we’ll both think of something else that we’re grateful for. And it’s just, it’s a wonderful way to sort of review all the good that’s been in our day.
Steve Yeah, that’s such a healthy practice.
James If you don’t mind sharing those other four, I’d appreciate it.
Distractions, greed, and discontent stop gratitude
Steve
Yeah. entitlement mentality. Distractions. I mean, how many dings are we getting on our phones of email or Twitter or Facebook notifications? Oh, right. Everybody’s got access to us instantaneously, because we allow that to be the case.
James
Yeah, that’s so true. That’s true about a lot of things we’re trying to get done. Keeps getting us off purpose.
Steve
I’ll just roll through a couple more greed and discontent kind of goes along with the entitlement but a little different, right?
James Right. Discontent that’s kind of a little more subtle, isn’t it? Sometimes it can be a little quiet feeling that you know, we’re just sort of unhappy or whatever.
Anxiety and unprocessed emotions stop gratitude
Steve
And so okay, entitlement mentality, daily distractions, greed and discontent, anxiety. I mean, think about it for a second, if I’m worrying about a specific thing, that’s gonna dominate my space in my mind, right? Right. Because I’m not gonna, I’m not smart enough to think about more than one dominant thing at a time.
So if worry is there, which is a form of anxiety, that’s going to be my mindset. But gratitude, can push that out in gratitude and can be become a dominant part and vice versa. Anxiety can do that to gratitude.
Here’s the one though, and we won’t have time to get into it now, because this is kind of a cornerstone of the program that I haven’t had time to dig into. But I have unprocessed emotions that I haven’t dealt with.
James
Oh, that is a really, really powerful self awareness statement, I’ll call it, because sometimes we use that as an excuse. We choose not to do the things we need to do or as an excuse not even to process those emotions.
Steve
Hmm. So true.
James
You know, it’s like, I’ll put it off until later. It’s like a very fancy procrastination, huh?
Steve
That’s good.
James
Very sophisticated procrastination. And it’s true. I mean, we all are working things out to some degree. If we think: I can’t do that until later, that stops us from a lot of things.
Be grateful in advance
I’m thinking about the story of Lazarus, and his two sisters (see John, Chapter 11). And of course, Jesus gets there, Lazarus is already in the tomb. And you know this, well, you’re a preacher, here I am preaching to the preacher. But you know, he stands outside that tomb, and he says, “Move away the stone,” (see John 11:39 below) And they all think he’s nuts. And he pauses. And he gives gratitude to the Father. He says, Thank you. I know, you’ve always heard my prayer (see John 11:41, 42 below). He’s thanking God ahead of time. He’s thanking God before, he calls Lazarus out of the tomb.
And I’ve always thought of the power of that kind of gratitude. And it’s sort of nipped in the bud this thing that you’re talking about this fifth one that you mentioned, you know, “I’m still working things out. I can’t be grateful until afterwards.” But Jesus gave us that example of being grateful before Lazarus was restored.
And you know, before he fed the 5,000, he blessed the food, he gave gratitude for what he had, even if it was just a few little pieces of bread and fish (see Matthew 15:36 below). And he took the seven loaves and the fishes, and gave thanks, and brake them, and gave to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude. He was being grateful for what he had. But I think it was being grateful for how he knew God was going to take care of the situation.
When I can be grateful, before God has blessed me on something, or before some problems worked out that I’m struggling with, it gives me the hope and the faith and the confidence and the trust that God is going to work it out, and not the way I may want it to work out, but in a way that is appropriate. And it’s a blessing.
Steve
So, I love what you just said. And you gave obviously a New Testament example of that. I’ll let you tell me if we have time for it now because I want to stick to gratitude. But there are Old Testament precedents for that. And Joshua was also, what you’re speaking about, praising God in advance of his answer, praising him in advance of his instructions.
James
I love that.
Steve
It’s in Joshua 6. Can I tell it real quick? Or do we have time?
James
Yeah, tell it real quick. Oh, we totally got time.
Steve
So they’ve crossed the Jordan River. Amazing story, right? You’ve got the stones of remembrance, you fast forward a little bit. And now you’re up against the double fortified walls of Jericho. I mean, you’re like, oh my gosh, these walls are however thick they are. We see the artillery at top, we see the guards on top, you know, the next challenge in their walk on their journey. Right, right?
And in Joshua 6:2, God says to Joshua, “See, I’ve already delivered the walls of Jericho into your hands.” Now if you’re Joshua, and we don’t we don’t get to read what he’s thinking, but he’s like, “No, I still see double fortified walls. I still see artillery.” Right, right? But God’s making him a promise. Right? Yeah. The next verse, verse 3, is when God gives him, what we think are crazy instructions about how many times to march around,
James Walk around the city. Yeah.
Steve
So what’s the lesson? It’s that the promise comes before the instruction.
The lens of gratitude
James
That’s really a powerful, powerful example of what you’re talking about. When you start looking at the Bible through that lens of gratitude and praise beforehand, I think we could see a lot of stories in a different light if we did that. Gratitude is so powerful. Yeah, I think it opens the window. It opens the curtains so the sunlight can come in. The sunlight is always there. But gratitude lets the light in the room.
Steve
Yeah. What’s great about it, too, and you gave the example of you and your wife, it’s like, even if you’re in the worst spot in your day. It doesn’t take much, right?
I mean, we can say “Okay, thank you that the car started. Thank you that I had clothes to put on. Thank you for the shower being hot this morning.” And gratitude is cumulative. It’s like a rolling snowball down the hill, right? Next thing you know, like you said, you’ve reeled off 25 things in five minutes. And now all of a sudden, you’ve got a different heart and a different mind space.
James
My wife shares a story. I was not with her. She was at church one Wednesday night. This little lady stood up and said, “Gratitude healed me of cancer.” And my wife went up to afterwards and said, “Well, can you tell me more? There’s gotta be more to this story.”
And the lady said, “Well, I just got to where I had to be grateful for everything. I was grateful for the plate and the knife and fork. I was grateful for the wrapper on the bread. I was just grateful for everything.” And she just filled her her heart with gratitude. It just dissolved that cancer.
Steve
Wow!
James
Isn’t that amazing? And that gratitude is so powerful because you’re really acknowledging the presence of God’s goodness and however it’s been manifested, however it’s been shown to us or given to us.
Steve That lady needs to write a book, I would read that.
So much to be grateful for
James
I come back to that so many times. Because even if you’ve had a really terrible day, you can be grateful the day is over; there’s always some way to find something to be grateful for. I’m really glad you brought that out.
And I’m glad you bring that up in your program. Because some people, they think they have to be grateful for material things. And I mean, it can begin with that. But it’s also how you’re grateful for the spiritual lessons God has taught you and the fact that Jesus came and shared his message with them, those people 2,000 years ago, I mean, you know, it, there’s a lot more spiritual stuff to be grateful for, than just the material things, obviously.
I’m going to kind of shift here a little bit. You’re a pastor. And so I’d be interested in your perspective on this. There are a lot of people today who have grown up in the church and are not happy with the way the Christian church has evolved in certain ways or been used or abused by certain people or movements. Some people are even not wanting to be called Christians anymore, because that name or word Christian has gotten a bad rap.
I still embrace that word Christian, because I don’t want someone else to kidnap that term. I can understand where somebody’s coming from. But so I’m gonna say Christian or just a follower of Jesus and follower of Christ, however you want to say it, what does it really mean? To be a follower of Jesus? What does that put on our hearts on how to think and how to live and how to treat other people?
To be truly Christian
Steve You know, I think the term Christian, if I’m correct, and I may not be, it’s only mentioned three times in the Bible.
James Yeah, you’re right.
Steve But I like the term disciple. Because at its core, it means a student. Right? And that brings humility, hopefully, into the picture, right? I gotta be careful with it. Because Paul did say knowledge puffs up and love builds up, right? (see 1 Corinthians 8:1 below) I think it’s being a life long student.
And I understand that audience that’s saying that to you, or that you’ve heard expressed that, you know, that they don’t want to be affiliated with that term Christianity anymore. I’m with you. I want to I want to keep Christianity where it belongs.
I think the church has not done a great job collectively being compassionate, and empathetic towards different groups of people, just to be candid. Yeah, I think the different audiences, that we could probably bring up several examples of, they’re still looking for a safe place. They’re still looking for a community of people that will be like-minded and have compassionate hearts.
Really, really, we can over-complicate it, right? This community that we’re referring to, or other communities that are similar. Aren’t they really all, like Farah at the beginning of the story that wanted empathy from brothers and sisters in Christ from a tragic accident, but she couldn’t find it.
James
We all need that; we’re all part of humanity. And I mean, I know even in churches where everybody’s very homogeneous, there’s not even a diversity of race or background or whatever. And they’re not necessarily very compassionate to each other.
We’re kind of making a public admission that we don’t know how to be compassionate like Jesus was.
How would Jesus treat anybody that’s different from us? It could be background, it could be race, it could be ethnicity, it could be certainly religion. You know, sometimes we look down our noses at people in a different church from us and, or sexual orientation, or all these things? How would Jesus deal with those people? He would love them.
Because I don’t think those labels that we have put on ourselves… I mean, here, you and I are two white males, you know, but that’s just a label too. I try to see everyone as a child of God and treat them accordingly, with the respect and love and I don’t have to agree with him on everything.
Loving more like Jesus did
How do you think our churches could do a better job? I think Jesus has put a call on our heart to love the way he loved. He said to his disciples, “I love you the way the Father loves me.” He wants us to love each other the way he loves him. So he’s really saying, I want you to love each other the way the Father loves me. That’s pretty powerful stuff.
Steve
It’s a high standard right there.
James
It is, but I think Jesus wouldn’t have asked us to do that if we weren’t capable. So what can we do individually? And collectively? How do you work with your current church to try to encourage that sense of compassion? Or, as a friend of mine says it: the white hot love of God.
Steve
I like it. It’s such a difficult topic to measure. Right? I think that’s why it’s hard for us because we’re Western society. We like results. We like things we can measure. So we can measure attendance. We can measure budgets, we can measure cash flow, the ABCs of ministry, if you will, right?
We can measure those things, and we can be competitive in those things.
But I told our church here, at the beginning of 2021, we actually, and I communicated this ahead of time, I said, “All year, we’re going to preach and teach on love, deeper love.” And so every sermon was from a different Scripture on the topic of love. And of course, I ran out of weeks before I ran out of Scripture, which is a good thing, right? Yeah. And you know, it’s harder to measure, right?
How will you know, when you’ve matured? And and how will you know, when you’ve arrived at it? Well, we won’t arrive at it.
And you think about all the different things you could look at in the Bible? Obviously, there’s a lot, right. But if we just took a quick glance, I mean, what do you want to grow in? Let’s teach on Nehemiah, or let’s teach on the kingdom of God. Let’s teach on the letters of Paul. I mean, all of its good, right? “But the greatest of these,” Paul said, “is love.” (1 Corinthians 13:13)
Right? And I think I’m not gonna have the magic pill for you, James. I’m still trying to grow in love myself.
No greater theology than love
I do know this. We don’t get to move on to a higher theology. I think that’s what we’re looking for. We’re looking for ways to mature that we can we can measure, like I was saying, and we’re looking for a greater teaching a pie-in-the-sky out there. We don’t get to graduate beyond our maturation in love. That’s what we’re going to be known for. That’s what we’re going to have to give account for one day.
James
Oh, wow.
Steve
So there’s not a greater theology than love.
James
That is a truth bomb. There is not a greater theology than love. Wow. I love that.
You know, Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2:13, “we have the mind of Christ.” That’s kind of one of my keynote ideas that I try to look at from lots of different angles.
If we have the mind of Christ, I think that means that we can love the way Christ did. That it is possible for us to. We may not perfectly do it every minute of every day, but we can strive toward it.
He doesn’t say you will have the mind of Christ, if you do all these things. He says it’s something we have now. And we have to use it.
So I try to have my perspective be assuming that I already have it. So how would I use what I already have? Instead of, “Oh, poor little me, I don’t have enough, I haven’t read my Bible enough.” You know what I’m saying?
Steve
I love that.
We have the mind of Christ
James
What does that mean to you? When you hear Paul say, “we have the mind of Christ”? Do you think we need to embrace that a little more maybe in the way we go about our daily lives?
Steve
Jesus said, when he was leaving, he told his disciples, you will go on to do even greater things (see John 14:12 below). And it’s like, they couldn’t fathom that. And I don’t think we can fathom that.
But of course, he’s referring to the coming of the Spirit, that we’re going to have the extra advantage of being sealed with the Spirit. Right? Um, yeah, I do think we think small. Sometimes.
I just try to keep in front of me: What can I do today? Who can I serve today? And maybe that’s not a grandiose thing. Maybe it’s encouraging somebody. Right? That’s a smaller step. Who can I encourage today? Who can I pick up the phone and call, text and email, a card? Oh, my gosh, a card. Imagine that, right?
I mean, where can I deny myself in my crazy busy day, and most of them are, and just look to serve somebody else? Maybe it’s striking up a conversation in a store. Maybe it’s sharing my faith, maybe it’s sharing a little bit of my journey, but maybe it’s just holding the door open for somebody and saying “Hey, God bless you today.” I mean, it’s just being… I call it, we’ve got to stop “navel gazing” and be on the lookout, be attentive to the needs out there because they’re there.
And to your point, I have the mind of Christ. Okay, that’s not debatable. If the Word is my standard, and it’s supposed to be, then that is what Paul said. And God inspired him to write that. So I do have the mind of Christ. And I think even maybe even a deeper dig is okay, I’ve got the mind of Christ. And God’s gonna give me those opportunities during the course of the day. Where’s my heart? Is my heart going to be the heart of Christ?
The little stuff isn’t so little
James
Oh, that’s good. Right? I was talking to some guys just earlier today. They were asking the question, you know, what’s your greater purpose and everything and, and I said, you know, we don’t always know what we’re doing fits into God’s greater purpose.
I mean, think of the people in the Bible, Joshua for example. I mean, his immediate thing, that you were talking about, was the walls of Jericho. But here, we are still reading about that thousands of years later.
Mary and Joseph were just kind of looking for a place to have their baby. Of course, they knew who this baby was going to be. That’s not the best example. But you know, there were so many people who were just trying to survive. They were just trying to get through the day, and they would do those small little things, like you’re talking about, and yet it had a bigger implication.
And I think maybe that’s true for us, too. You know, maybe you’re just holding the door for somebody or you’re having a kind word, but you never know what kind of ripple effect that might have in that person’s life.
I can remember one time a guy that smiled on me in the sidewalks of New York City 30 years ago, and every time I think about it, my heart is tenderized, to use your word. Oh, hopefully, I’ve done that to someone, I don’t know. Yeah.
Rivers of Hope book
So we’re gonna close up here pretty quick. Steve, tell me quickly about your new book, Rivers of Hope.*
Steve
Rivers of Hope. It’s a book, that’s really to be honest with you, is a public thank you to God. It’s a public thank you to God for some mountains that He’s moved in my life, such as going into the ministry in an unorthodox way. It gets into our adoption journey, which I don’t think we’ve gotten into today. But it’s adopting three kids at once, after five miscarriages and six failed adoptions on a five year adoption journey. And then God’s saying “Here, here’s three at once.”
And what I didn’t tell you was that trip to Huntsville that we started in 2011, also came with three kids that just came into our home at the same time. So we literally went into the ministry, moved the mountains for us to go in the ministry, and became parents in the same week.
So it was a book I started writing 11 years ago, when I saw Him doing miracles with how our kids were coming to us. I just got around to finishing it last year, like we were talking about earlier. And so I really wasn’t concerned about sales, or any of that kind of thing. I just wanted to thank God and if it inspired a few people along the way. Great.
James
Good. Is it available on Amazon? Or how do people get it?
Steve
It’s on Amazon.* You can also find it on riversofhopebook.com. It’s available those two ways.
James
Okay, cool. Well, I’ll have links to that in the show notes.
We could talk another hour or two. And I know that from our previous conversations, I want to ask you quickly if there’s anything that you’d really like, from our conversation that maybe I didn’t pursue, or just any little thing, you’d like to wrap up with to leave my listeners with.
From hurt to hope for churches
Steve
I think one thing James is, about a year ago, I sat down with the founders of Caring Resources, Hurt to Hope, and we wrote curriculum for Hurt to Hope for churches. And we did our first workshop for an entire congregation in Florida around this time last year.
I know as a minister, and you know, being involved, and your audience knows, there’s a lot of churches that are hurting right now. And it doesn’t even matter where the blame is. If you blame leadership, you blame disputing among members, churches are just hurting. That’s a fact.
Just because we haven’t talked about it, I want to put out that we have a program to walk entire congregations towards healing. All that information is also on the same website you gave earlier. www.hurt2hope.org.
James
That’s a powerful resource really, for churches because I can see the value of doing that collectively.
What’s the best way for people to contact you to be in touch with you?
Steve
They can definitely find me on Facebook. Just my name Steve Wormer. You can send me an email at steve.wormer5@gmail.com.
James
Okay, well, I’ll have those in the show notes and then the links for your book and and the website and everything.
Three final questions
So I always ask my guests three final questions. The first one is, if you could talk to any Bible character other than Jesus Who would it be? And what would you ask them?
Steve
Wow, what a great question. I’m gonna go with Caleb.
James
Caleb. All right,
Steve
I’m gonna go with Caleb because he stayed faithful. He stayed strong, matter of fact, the Bible says he was as strong at 85 as he was when he was 45.
James
Yeah, that sounds good. That’s it.
Steve
I don’t think he was talking spiritually. I mean, excuse me, physically. Physically, that’d be impressive. Spiritually, it’s even more impressive. He was wholehearted. The Bible says he was wholehearted, commitment to God, meaning he didn’t want anything at all to come in between. So I’m envious of his spiritual prowess for sure.
James
Well, so what would you ask him?
Steve
How in the world did you specifically, of course, Joshua, was there with him when they were on the scout team against all that peer pressure, right? And when Moses caved in to the peer pressure, the mass numbers return versus the two, how did you not get discouraged and stay faithful?
James
That would be good to hear that answer wouldn’t it. Of all the times I’ve asked this question. Nobody has ever come up with Caleb. So that’s really good. It’s nice to hear a new fresh perspective on that.
Here’s the second question. Is there any Bible character that you especially identify with?
Steve
I’ll go with Gideon. Because what God was teaching Gideon, clearly, it wasn’t about his resources. It wasn’t about his manpower. It wasn’t about his gift set. It was clearly about what God was going to do through him. He simply made himself available.
Of course that story is not to Gideon alone. But I loved how he got it down from what? basically 30,000 troops to start, down to 10,000, down to 300. Yeah. And how mightily God used him, right? I really relate to that.
Not that I’m him at all. I just really respect that story. And I’m awe of how God worked through him. And I look at some of the things God’s done in my life. I clearly recognize that it wasn’t me. It’s like, how do you go into the ministry without formal training? How do you have three kids all at once, after five years in not being able to conceive? It’s God.
James
Right. Okay, here’s the third question. We’ve kind of talked about this a little bit. The Bible Speaks to You Podcast is really about getting back to the original message and Christianity of Jesus. So how would you describe Jesus’s original message of how he wanted us to live our lives?
Steve
You know, I know it’s deeper and longer than what I’m going to say initially. But I can’t, I can’t but not think of three words: “Come, follow me.”
What does that look like in 2023? Right? I mean, it’s being on the mission field. It’s serving. Its its loving people, one of the things we’ve talked about today, right? And I think if I could say, you know, you didn’t ask me like this, James. But like, if I’m stuck on an island, and I can only have, you know, certain parts of the Bible. Let me have Matthew 5-7, and live the kingdom. Let me just live the kingdom. That appeared to be the most important thing to Jesus. So I’ll just try to follow the red letters in Matthew 5-7. Right?
James
Wow, that’s powerful. Steve, I want to thank you so much for being here today and sharing these thoughts. I want to honor you for all that you’re doing to help people learn that powerful message of love and gratitude and forgiveness. I’m sure there’s a whole lot more in there that we haven’t talked about.
I’m really grateful for you, because of your letting your light shine, and you’re helping other people in whatever way God is leading you to, one day at a time. And that’s, that’s good. But I just really appreciate you giving me some of your time today. I’m sure my listeners have enjoyed this as much as I have.
Steve
It’s my honor. I know people say that, but it is my honor. And I haven’t only known you a short time. I know your audience already knows as you’re not only a powerful man of God, you’re a humble man of God, you’re looking to learn and it comes across. You clearly have a loving heart towards people. And so of course, it’s my honor to spend time with you and I’m grateful that we’re becoming friends.
James
Yeah, me too. Thank you so much. Well, thanks again, Steve. And God bless.
Steve
Thanks.
Connect with Steve
Website: https://hurt2hope.org/
Email: steve.wormer5@gmail.com
Book: Rivers of Hope*
* Amazon affiliate link
Photo Credit
Davide Dalfolvo
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James Early, the Jesus Mindset Coach, is a Bible teacher, speaker, and podcaster. He conducts Bible workshops online and in person. His focus is on getting back to the original Christianity of Jesus by embracing the mindset of Christ in daily life. Contact him here.
Subscribe to the podcast Make a donation to support the show
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Bible References
Romans 12:15 NKJV
15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep.
Job 2:11-13 NKJV
11 Now when Job’s three friends heard of all this adversity that had come upon him, each one came from his own place—Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite, and Zophar the Naamathite. For they had made an appointment together to come and mourn with him, and to comfort him.
12 And when they raised their eyes from afar, and did not recognize him, they lifted their voices and wept; and each one tore his robe and sprinkled dust on his head toward heaven.
13 So they sat down with him on the ground seven days and seven nights, and no one spoke a word to him, for they saw that his grief was very great.
Luke 10:30-34 KJV
30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
John 11:39, 41, 42 NIV
39 “Roll the stone aside,” Jesus told them.
41 So they rolled the stone aside. Then Jesus looked up to heaven and said, “Father, thank you for hearing me.
42 You always hear me, but I said it out loud for the sake of all these people standing here, so that they will believe you sent me.”
Matthew 15:36 KJV
And he took the seven loaves and the fishes, and gave thanks, and brake them, and gave to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude.
Joshua 6:2, 3 NLT
2 But the LORD said to Joshua, “I have given you Jericho, its king, and all its strong warriors.
3 You and your fighting men should march around the town once a day for six days.
1 Corinthians 8:1 NKJV
1 Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies.
1 Corinthians 13:13 NKJV
13 but the greatest of these is love.
1 Corinthians 2:13 NKJV
13 we have the mind of Christ.
John 14:12 NLT
12 I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works, because I am going to be with the Father.
